Can you really know how somebody else feels? No. You can care deeply and still not be in their shoes, and admitting that is more useful than pretending.
Can you really know how somebody else feels? No. You can care deeply and still not be in their shoes, and admitting that is more useful than pretending.
I agreed a system with the dentist. Thirty second intervals, three breaths, and I raise my hand. That is what my body needs because of autonomic dysreflexia, and somebody else with the same condition would still experience it differently. Two people in the identical event do not have the identical event. You cannot get there from a book or a film.
One thing to try: Instead of saying I know how you feel, ask them to explain how it affects them.
In this episode
(0:01) Can you truly take someone else's perspective?
(2:39) The two minute silence, and the county wide one
(4:50) Even reading the books, you still cannot get there
(7:33) The dentist, thirty second intervals, and raising my hand
(9:40) Why I keep talking about healthy and unhealthy
(12:16) Explain to me how it affects you
(14:55) The same event is not the same event for two people
Support the podcast and join the Weekly Calm: stevenwebb.uk
Thank you for listening.
Steven
The question this answers
Can you ever really know how somebody else feels?
No. And saying so out loud is far more useful than pretending, which is what most of us do when we say I know exactly how you feel.
The heart of it
Two people in the identical event do not have the identical event.
Films and books get you nearer. They do not get you there.
The healthy version is not claiming to know. It is asking better questions.
I recorded this after a fortnight around Remembrance events, listening to veterans tell me things. The first twenty minutes of Saving Private Ryan will convince anybody they understand the D Day landings. You do not have the smell, or the fear, or the days beforehand, or how hungry or how trained or how frightened any one of them was.
The same is true much closer to home. Put two people with an identical spinal injury together and we lean the same way, pick things up the same way, and talk in the same short sentences with a breath in the middle. Watch for it in this episode and you will hear me doing it.
And we are still having entirely different lives.
I have autonomic dysreflexia. My blood pressure goes to something like two hundred and fifty over a hundred and sixty, with a pounding head and pins everywhere. Somebody else with the same condition will sweat and go blue and have the same numbers, and what their body does with it will not be what mine does. Mine is not even what mine was in my twenties.
Here is a good example of thresholds. I had dental work before a live recording and asked to do it without an injection, because I did not want to be slurring on camera. We agreed a system. Thirty seconds, three breaths, then stop, and my hand goes up if it is too much. She was surprised I managed it. I only managed it because I knew exactly when it would end.
The pain did not change. What changed was knowing the shape of it.
One small thing to try
Instead of saying I know how you feel, say something smaller and then ask.
I have that too. Explain to me how it affects you.
Then stop talking. Let them put it in the context of their own life, which is the part you were never going to guess.
You will notice the pull to answer their bad day with your bad day. Some of that is trying to show you understand. Some of it is us quietly letting the room know we are managing. Notice it and let it pass.
Questions people ask
Is saying I know how you feel really that bad?
It is not wicked, it just closes the door. The moment you have claimed to know, they stop explaining, and the explaining was the only route you had.
Should people see my disability or look past it?
Depends entirely on what for. Designing my house, or inviting me somewhere, then see the wheelchair. Asking me about meditation, mostly you do not need to. Not seeing it in order to be kind is its own kind of unhelpful.
What is the difference between healthy and unhealthy empathy?
Unhealthy is taking somebody's feelings on so completely that you cannot function, which helps nobody. Healthy is feeling it and staying standing, so there is still somebody in the room who can do something.
Read along
The transcript
It follows the audio. Press any line to jump there.
empathy · compassion · relationships · pain
Read the transcript
Can you truly ever take someone else's perspective?
Can you really walk in their shoes?
Can you really say, I know how you feel?
Can you really do that?
How many times have we said that?
Is it really possible?
We watch movies, we read books, we find out all this information
about these people, you know, our friends, close friends.
But can we really understand and feel what they feel from their
perspective?
In this podcast, I'm going to talk about seeing it from someone
else's perspective, whether we can feel what they feel, what it
means.
And I'm going to talk about the whole healthy and unhealthy way
of doing it.
I often talk about healthy and unhealthy ways of everything.
I don't believe in good and bad and positive and negative.
I believe in some things, either leaning towards a healthy
way of doing something or unhealthy way of doing something.
I find it gives me a lot less suffering, a lot more joy.
It's not so much black and white then.
And at the end of this podcast, I'll talk about a healthy
way of seeing things from somebody else's perspective.
So let's begin.
I'm Stephen Webb and I'm your host of Stillness in the Storms.
And this is the podcast that helps you to wake up and live life
with less suffering, more joy, and especially in a very frustrating
world.
You can find out more about me stephenweb.uk and where you can support
me by downloading an app just by a link on that page, StephenWeb.uk
that'd be awesome and amazing.
But let's get on with today's podcast and let's talk about can
you truly take someone else's perspective?
Can you truly feel what they're feeling or understand from
where they're coming from?
And I've been at Remembrance Parade the last couple of weeks,
not solidly, but we had the Field of Poppies where you went down
and done a little march and done a little two minute silence.
We also had the Poppy launch where we've done a little silence.
And during that time I've been hanging around with veterans and
talking a bit about their stories.
And I did the same last year and on Sunday we had the full on
Remembrance Day.
So we had the two minute silence in the morning.
And we also had the because we're the count, the city, the main
city in the county.
We had the Countywide Remembrance Day, 2 o', clock, Lord
Lieutenant, lots of other mayors and everybody turns up and
we do a little march through town along with many of the other
cadets and soldiers and the Army, Navy, and the Air Force.
And they all turn up and we all march and we all.
I say we all march.
I don't.
But we all lay a reef.
Many of us lay a reef.
And in talking to their stories, they're telling me about
the things that they went through and their parents went through,
grandparents sometimes, and I try to see it from where they're
coming from.
And I used to think that I could do that.
I used to think that because I've seen movies, because I've seen
other things.
And there's a movie called Saving Private Ryan in the first
20 minutes.
It's absolutely mind blowing how terrible and awful the D day
landings were.
And you feel like you're there, but you're not.
Because you haven't got the smell, you haven't got the fear,
you haven't got the context of everything apart from, you know the
story.
But you don't really know what they went through the days before.
You don't know how hungry they are, you don't know how fearful they
are.
You don't know much training they've had.
You just don't know any of these things and their lives and
their stories.
Some of them might be getting out of the boats really enthusiastic
to go.
Some of them might be terrified to get out.
Some of them might have froze.
We don't know.
And we never can truly know.
Even if we listen to their story, even if we sat down with one
of the survivors and they tell it through the eyes of the way they
experienced it, we still cannot truly understand or feel.
We can get close, maybe, but we just cannot actually live it.
It's impossible.
And even when we read books of famous people and we hear stories,
and even if it is similar, we might have been in the army and we
might have gone to other battles.
No.
Or I might be talking to someone else that's paralyzed like
me.
C5 complete.
And if you see two C5 completes together, we lean the same
way.
We tend to pick up things the same way.
Our hands are paralyzed the same way.
And we talk the same way.
We talk in short sentences and take breaths.
As you notice now that I brought that attention to you, you'll
notice even on this podcast, you'll also see that we're just very
similar in many ways.
Just the same as two humans walk very similarly together.
But the experience of walking for two people is completely different.
The experience of being paralyzed as a C5 complete is completely
different.
For me and somebody else, I broke my neck at 18.
Even if somebody else broke their neck at 18 in a diving pool.
What did they go through in life before that?
Did they have the childhood I had?
Even if they did, it wouldn't be identical.
So have they got the muscles that I've got?
You know, are they better prepared than me?
And these are the kind of things that you cannot ever truly
know.
But what's really interesting is when we think we can because we're
similar circumstances and taking a more generic approach.
You know, I know what it's like to be tired.
I know it's like to be hungry.
I don't know what it's like to be really hungry.
I don't know what it's like for a child in a third world country
where they haven't eaten for days.
I don't always like to be thirsty, where you haven't had a
drink for days and days in the desert.
But we can try to understand.
We can come to somewhere there.
Each one of our pain thresholds is different.
One person's pain is another person's.
I don't mind that.
I went to the dentist and I had to do a live that afternoon.
I said to the dentist, can we try to do it without injections?
So I didn't want to talk like, as if I just like had some kind of,
I don't know, something wrong in my mind that made me slow my words
now.
And I'm trying to think of the appropriate way of saying that, you
know, stroke or something like that, you know, and I didn't want
to go on a live when all my mouth was dribbling.
So they said, okay, so, but you probably won't be able to cope.
And I said, well, let's give it a go.
And I agreed with the dentist that we would go in 30 second intervals.
I would take three breaths and I would raise my hand if it was too
much.
Well, from that perspective, I managed it.
She drilled my tooth out and she really, she was quite surprised
actually, that I managed it.
But she drilled my tooth out several times.
But she agreed that she would stop after three breaths, after 30
seconds every time.
So I knew that pain was going to come to an end every single time.
And I was able to endure it for that time.
Then if I didn't know the pain was going to end after 30 seconds,
I would never have done it.
I couldn't have done it that somebody else could.
So we tend to compare ourselves as if we're doing better
or worse than somebody else based on their pain and our pain.
Someone comes in and says, oh, I've got a real bad pain in my leg.
And we go, yeah, well, I.
My leg nearly fell off one day.
Okay, bit of an exaggeration, but, you know, we tend to do that.
We.
And we're doing it for two reasons.
We're doing it because we're trying to show that person that we
understand where they are, and we're also trying to show that we're
doing okay.
We subconsciously try to do better as well.
Of course we do.
Humans are competitive, social animals, and we have this hierarchy
that we're trying to compete even if we don't see it.
It's there, trust me, very much.
Subconscious, but it's there.
Your subconscious mind wants to let the world know you're doing
all right.
But it is really interesting the way that this old adage that
you can literally walk in someone else's shoes, it's just false.
And we need to somehow have a healthier way of doing this, a better
way of doing this.
And there is.
But let's go through the two ways of doing it.
There's an unhealthy way and a healthy way.
When I talk about healthy and unhealthy, the reason why I do this
is if you look at everything in life, whether or not it's alcohol,
whether or not it's sex or anything, there's.
There's a healthy and unhealthy way of doing things.
You know, even thinking negative.
There's an unhealthy way of living there and just be negative
all the time.
And a healthy way of using negativity.
I've done a podcast about healthy and unhealthy empathy, and
I'll be really brief.
Unhealthy empathy is literally taking on other people's feelings
and not being able to function yourself.
That doesn't help you or anybody.
Healthy empathy is being able to take on their.
Or being able to feel what they're feeling, but not taking it
on yourself.
I suppose this is a progression of really taking that
empathy to a real different level of healthiness.
So an unhealthy way of taking someone else's perspective or the
perception of doing it is thinking that you can do it, thinking
that you can literally put yourselves in their shoes.
Just because I'm paralyzed, it doesn't mean to say I can see someone
else that's paralyzed and go, I know what that feels like.
I don't.
I suffer from a condition called autonomic dysreflexia.
And in autonomic dysreflexia means my blood pressure goes sky
high to about 250 over 160 almost instantly.
And it gives a pounding headache.
And, like, people are sticking pins in me everywhere, and I sweat
and it's horrible.
It's hell on earth.
But I haven't always experienced it in the same way.
It's getting worse.
But when I was in my 20s, that autonomic dysreflexia progressed
in such a different way when it happened.
Whereas nowadays it's.
It's just worse.
I don't know, it's because my body's older or.
I don't know, it's more pain and.
But somebody else having that same attack and that same condition
would clearly experience it different.
There'll be similarities.
There'll be the sweating, they'll be turning the blue, there'll
be the high blood pressure.
But how the body manifests, that would be different.
So an unhealthy way is thinking, well, I have that too,
so I know how you feel.
You can go, I have that too.
Explain to me how it affects you.
And yes, somebody else with autonomic dysreflexia or someone
else with a similar condition or a similar feeling would be able
to come closer.
But it doesn't mean to say you can truly do it.
You know, two people losing a leg, some people might have fantasy
pain, some people might not.
So unhealthy way is literally thinking that we can do it.
I remember doing an interview just a few weeks ago on Radio Cornwall,
and it reminded me that the DJ reminded me of when he looked up
and goes, I suppose some people will say that I see you as
not in a wheelchair, and that's fine, but it depends on the
context.
You know, if you're designing a house for me, you better see that
I'm in a wheelchair.
You know, if you're inviting me somewhere and I've got to go,
well, I'm in an electric wheelchair.
You.
You better plan that.
You know, the restaurant is one that has access.
So.
But if you're asking me for my knowledge on meditation, then especially
on the mind side, that's fine.
My experience have been there as someone in a wheelchair or just
my experience have been there not including that, that's fine.
But if you're wanting to exclude the fact that I'm in a wheelchair,
because maybe you cannot empathize with it, maybe you cannot
understand it, or maybe you want to make me feel better and not
see that it would be unhealthy.
It'd be unhealthy not to recognize it.
And again, it depends on the Context.
If.
If you're gonna come to me about meditation, sat on a cushion
and how to sit.
No, see that I'm in a wheelchair.
And see, I'm.
I'm going to be able to give you a vague way of doing it, but
I'm not going to know truly, because I can.
And again, it comes down to childhood and things like that.
So an unhealthy way is going to.
I know how you feel because I've been there.
I know how you feel because it was worse for me.
It may have been worse for you that the conditions may have been
worse, but you may have the better muscles because you may have
had a tougher childhood.
Two people can explain, can experience exactly the same thing,
but one has been through a lot more in their childhood.
Therefore, they've grown the ability to deal with a lot more than
the other person.
So the experience of that same event, almost identical event, would
be different for both of them.
You see where I'm going with this?
So.
So you're starting to realize maybe that you cannot take someone
else's perspective.
You can somewhat empathize, you can somewhat go there, but you
cannot truly do it.
So what would the healthy way of doing it?
That's the good question.
As you see, this is something I ponder quite a lot.
The healthy and unhealthy versions.
And the healthy way is that I don't really know, I cannot really
understand.
Explain more.
And they may bring up something.
You go, well, I can kind of get there because this happened to
me.
Is that similar?
But ask questions.
The more questions you can ask that the more they can explain, the
more information they can give, the better perspective you'll
have.
But let them explain.
Don't you try to explain.
Because again, it's not their perspective, it's yours.
You might think you've got it, but you haven't.
You cannot have it.
So ask questions, take time to sit back, allow them to explain the
situation, allow them to put it in context as well, and allow
them to put it in context of their lives, which is really, really
important.
So hopefully, to recap on this podcast, so to recap on this podcast,
you cannot truly walk in someone else's shoes.
Stop trying to do it.
Stop.
When they come in there and sit there, do you know what?
I've had a hell of a day.
Stop going, yeah, I've had hell of a day, too.
Listen to that.
Hell of a day.
And when they're ready, they'll listen to your hell of a
day.
Stop trying to say, well, I feel that because I've done this.
It's not a competition.
It's not a competition who has the biggest pain threshold or who
experience the most.
It's about truly understanding and helping them completely from
the perspective of that we're there, too.
And it's not about presuming the unhealthy way is.
I can take on that perspective because I've seen a movie, I've read
a book, or my friends in a wheelchair, things like that.
You just cannot do it.
So the healthy way is ask questions, ask them more.
What's it really like?
How does it feel?
What kind of life have you had?
And I know you cannot always go into deep detail, but the healthy
way is, how much detail can I go in now?
How much time have I got?
Can I ask questions if I can?
I've got to do the best I can.
But the main thing is don't confess that you know their side.
Don't say, I know how you feel.
Rephrase it to something a little more subtler.
Say, do you know what?
I may know how you feel to some degree, a little bit different.
I know it's a play on words.
I know it's a little bit.
But the subtle changes is huge.
Yeah, subtle changes is huge.
So I'm Stephen Webb, and this is Stillness in the Storms, the podcast
that helps you to find a little more joy and a little less
suffering in life when life is a little frustrating.
You can help me by sharing this podcast.
That'd be amazing.
That'd be awesome.
Leave me a review on itunes or, you know, star me on Spotify
or just do whatever on whatever platform you're on.
That'd be awesome and amazing.
But sharing will be incredible.
And if you want to drop me a message, I had an email from a lovely
lady this morning asking me, where's my podcast?
And thank you for the encouragement.
Really makes a difference.
And she gave me an idea of my next podcast.
So I really, really appreciate that.
So if anything resonated with you in this podcast and you want
to go deeper, please let me know.
Please email me, and we will certainly try to go deeper, and we'll
certainly do a podcast about it.
That'd be amazing.
That would help me out.
It would help you out.
And there's somebody else with the same deeper insight, or there's
somebody else out there that does want to know what you want to
know.
So drop me an email, go to stephenweb.uk and you'll find all
the links and connections that you need to be able to contact me,
support me, buy me a coffee or whatever you'd like to do.
Take care.
I love you guys.
You are awesome.
I hope you have the most amazing day and keep in touch.
